and yet you heard the white house, the administration including ambassador susan rice saying, no, no, no, that's not it at all. now, listen f deception and -- if deception and lies and cover-up is proven, this thing could spiral out of control and really damage the president's prospects, couldn't it? >> well, if you can prove deception and cover-up and lies. i think it was more incompetent and failure to get their talking points straight. gregg: isn't that equally bad? >> i wouldn't say it's incompetence in terms of knowledge, i'd say it's in terms of language. gregg: incompetence in terms of ability to handle a crisis. >> well, listen, handling a crisis not in terms of the messaging, but in terms of how we address what happened in libya are two very different things. it remains to be seen -- gregg: the murder of four americans, the first time in 30 years. >> you and i agree. gregg: you've got anti-american -- >> you and i are not disagreeing on this topic. we fully agree that we need competence when it comes to policy, but it's very different when you're talking about one person sayi